Talking Culture, Identity & Diversity in Kid’s Books with Corrie Locke-Hardy [video]

Michaela: Hello and welcome to the first episode of Let's Get Kidzsmart! I'm here today with Corrie Locke-Hardy from The Tiny Activist, a former classroom teacher who's passionate about encouraging anti-racist, anti-bias education and highlighting the importance of diversity and inclusion in popular children's books and in the classroom. And they're also a partner here at Kidzsmart! So, thank you so much for being my first guest, Corrie.

Corrie: Oh, my gosh. I didn't know I was the first, now I feel even fancier. Thank you for having me!

Michaela: So, can you tell me a little bit about your past and like how it brought you to creating The Tiny Activist?

Corrie: Yeah, for sure. So I, like many people, have had many career paths in life. And so in 2016 about oh, after being in the restaurant industry for about nine years, I decided to go back to school for education and I got my bachelor's in early education and in inclusive settings. Specifically, with an early childhood focus. And then I went to grad school for gender and cultural studies. All this was in Boston, and I was a classroom teacher for a few years. And then one thing led to another.

I ended up leaving the classroom, and now I do a lot of my work focuses on not only literacy, but finding really amazing books for any situation that arises, because it's hard to be a tiny human! You know, it's really hard to be a tiny human in the world, especially if you have any myriad of historically marginalized or oppressed identities. And so now I do some consulting, professional development, and stuff like that. If you need any books, I'm here!

Michaela: And can you tell me a little bit about why representation in books is so important for young kids?

Corrie: Yeah, absolutely. So basically, even if we think about anything at all in this case, specifically we're talking about books, but everybody needs to see their lived experiences validated externally. You know, especially in the media and when we consume media, especially during childhood, we learn what our society values, we learn what our culture values.

When we're only taught about hardship, oppression, and traumatic experiences about a specific group – for example, black people – this turns someone into a lesson for others, it turns their generational trauma, turns their lived experiences into something to be consumed by others and intellectualized. And so, this also sort of suggests that somebody is able to be a spokesperson for an identity or a cultural group. And it also unfairly puts the emotional labor on this historically marginalized person to educate others which then only further causes harm and can lead to retraumatizing. It can lead to being emotionally burnt out. You know, that's not a very welcoming environment. If you had to defend your humanity in any way just to be seen as a valid person. So, because this is so dehumanizing and it often causes, especially in books and media, for people to have to sacrifice examples of cultural pride in order to defend their identity in the media.

So, speaking of a community that I'm a part of, the LGBTQIA2S+ community, the Alphabet Mafia, we're getting bigger every day. So, so, many of the initial children's books featuring same sex couples, which has really only been for a few decades since the eighties, and nineties. And so many of these books are focused on overcoming identity-based oppression, convincing heterosexual families that same sex family structures are valid. And but now sort of that our community is a little bit more, you know, overall, much more accepted socially we can sort of see some of the books that are coming out now that can be examples of more unapologetic queer characters and books that focus on joyful representation rather than just fighting to be seen or fighting to be seen as human.

Michaela: Yeah, 100%. That kind of made me think there of like when you see Rom-Com movies that are about like queer people now, it's always about them coming out or it's always about like they're never just there and existing. There's always been some kind of, I don't know, something more behind it. Like, can we just be?

Corrie: Yeah, exactly. Like, stories don't have to have a coming out narrative. And people I mean, people don't even have to come out to be valid obviously. But it's really beautiful and refreshing to sort of drop into a story where none of these things like coming out, and if we want to go like, “finding yourself”, you know, that has to proceed the actual exciting events in the movie.

Michaela: Yeah. 100%.

Corrie: It doesn't have to be the main theme.

Michaela: Yeah. And I know that some people kind of avoid talking to kids about certain subjects because they're afraid of mistakes or getting things wrong, or they think that kids are too young to learn about specific topics like LGBTQ families or gender identity or afraid of making mistakes when they talk to kids about race. How can people kind of gain more confidence around that? And how can we teach kids about specific topics in an age appropriate manner?

Corrie: Yeah, for sure. This is probably by far the biggest question that I get from people and I really want to start out by validating that it's really natural to feel nervous, especially teaching and talking to somebody about a topic that is new to you personally. You know, I always use the example of like if I was a substitute teacher and somebody was like, here you go, here's your AP calculus class notes for the day that you're going to teach. I would be a disaster! Yeah. I would be just like so sweaty; I would be so nervous too. My math levels just aren't there. So, like, I would feel really uncomfortable trying to teach somebody that.

And it's the exact same thing, you know, like nobody is particularly prepared to have to explain racism to a kid, you know, and nobody wants to have to do it. But the fact of the matter is that we are in a white supremacy culture, and that culture has created a shield that protects white people from not only sort of the inner workings of this cultural oppression, but also it doesn't prepare any of us for talking about this.

Especially you know, I'm in my thirties. I come from the generation that people are like, don't talk about race, colorblind, everybody is happy and fine and such – that’s invalidating. It's also not very helpful. So, I think recognizing that you're going to be uncomfortable, that's the first step. You know, even this is what I have focused on since 2016. And it's like still not easy, you know, it's like never fun to talk about all of these things and also any sort of social justice education topic. It starts with the same foundation no matter what age. I personally am a proponent of teaching this right from the beginning with the foundation because then I feel like there is going to be less unlearning that has to be done later on in life and later on in school.

If we start from a social justice foundation, any person needs to cultivate a personal identity that centered around joy and empowerment. And they also need to be able to recognize that in others, especially when their lived experiences are different. So, I think that's a really great place to start, talking about this identity cultivation.

Then also a second piece to add on to that which will help facilitate these conversations would be recognizing justice in a developmentally appropriate way. The way that I always explained this when I was in the classroom – I worked with three- to five-year-old’s – and so anybody that has been around, probably even one 3–5-year-old, has always heard something along the lines of like “that's not fair, this isn't fair, this game's not fair”. And so, okay, let's take back this statement. Kids are learning at this age about fair and unfair. And we can take this a step further and not sort of leave that surface of fairness and unfairness conversation behind and really get to the center of the issue. Is it really unfair or is it just not the outcome that you wanted? You know, like, is it really unfair that somebody else won the Foursquare game or did you just want to win? Because, like, I get it. You know, we've got to be the Foursquare champion, but just because somebody else won doesn't necessarily mean that that was unfair. It just means that you're disappointed.

So being able to draw this like very specific through-line to a situation, to this big abstract concept of justice can be taught and explained in the classroom using familiar terms and situations. And it really helps, especially with these big abstract topics, kids that are three to five or just sort of conceptualizing that the world operates in like a not entirely egocentric way. And they're also just being able to conceptualize abstract things and algebraic thinking. So being able to point to a specific phrase or situation really also helps to kind of explain.

You know, kids naturally are inclined for empathy, fairness, and we can take these natural inclinations and help develop critical thinking skills and recognition of injustice. Due to marginalized aspects of one identity, you know, we can talk about visible and invisible identities. We can go deeper with discussions of justice and fairness. And that brings in topics like identifying stereotypes and signs to look for and we can then take it to is woo.. Got too excited! Is somebody being unfairly having a rule applied to them? You know, if we want to talk again about the in the classroom thing, you know, are all the rules applied fairly to all the students in the classroom, whereas there may be one rule that's like, oh, girls aren't allowed to go play in the mud or something, you know, then you can sort of again have that very concrete example to a large abstract sort of thing. So I hope that helps.

And I hope, yeah, that that makes people feel a little bit better that, you know, just got to keep having ongoing conversations. Like when we learn English or when we learn, you know, history, we don't just have one conversation about grammar. We learn all the different parts of grammar. We have ongoing things. We, you know, do things like spelling tests where things get progressively more complex. So like why would any of these topics like anti-bias anti-racist topics, talking about gender stereotypes, all of these things, we're certainly not going to be having one conversation about it. So it's making the time to embed all of these within regular parts of the day.

Michaela: Yeah, that's a really great point. And yeah, I think it must have a huge impact on kids when you start with an anti-bias anti-racist curriculum in school as opposed to like trying to unlearn specific things later in life.

Corrie: Absolutely. Yeah.

Michaela: So, diversity and inclusion play a huge role in our kid’s programs, but we know we can always grow and do better. What do you recommend when it comes to creating diverse characters in kids’ books?

Corrie: For sure. Well, so I really like this question because it sort of lets you, the universal you, get really macro and micro with it because I think once we reach a place where the people creating the media is representative to what our society actually looks like, then I think we'll be on a really solid path because right now it's just so incredibly unbalanced and there's extremely poor representation of many lived experiences of racialized and historically marginalized and oppressed individuals.

And we also see people of the dominant culture, which is white Eurocentrism for us where we are in North America, so I can only speak to that. But so, we're talking about our specific white Eurocentric culture. They are creating the narratives for other people, and this is typically through their own lens. So, this would be talking about Christopher Columbus discovering America versus talking about colonialism and or at least having primary sources that you study and talk about from each side. You know, because some folks might be like yes, America was founded when Christopher Columbus rolled up in here on a ship. And it was great. It was just a beautiful land of milk and honey. You know?

And then if you look at it, you're like, oh, the Indigenous and First Nations people who have not only been living here for thousands of years, but they also they consider 1490 to be their apocalypse, you know, like Indigenous folks are living in a post-apocalyptic society, according to them, because of colonization. And it's very unfair to not have all of these narratives represented. And this is super disingenuous to assume that everybody has the same outlook on history, on what feels good for them to like see people that look like them and think like them and feel like them on TV and then to feel like it's not accurately represented. So, we also can sort of, it's disingenuous to the groups that are being represented. It's also indicative of this larger white savior complex by people speaking over others instead of amplifying their voices.

So I would recommend, I guess, reflecting on the stories that you want to be told and then thinking about who has the authority to tell them. And if you are not that person, that's totally fine. Pass the mic. And, you know, allow others to create their own narratives. And if this is in terms of illustrations, don't fall into tropes. Don't try to… Oh, sorry. I got all got emotional! So if you're also talking in terms of illustrations, then you really want to make sure that you're not falling into tropes. And also, if you're ever in a room where any sort of decisions are being made, whatever priority level could be about where you want to order lunch, or it could be about, I don't know, a $10 million funding deal. But it's our decision or sorry, I don't know why I said decision, I meant responsibility. It's absolutely our responsibility to advocate for more diverse voices in the room. And diversity... I have a love/hate relationship with the word diversity.

Michaela: Okay.

Corrie: Because I think some people sort of misapply it, especially when it comes to books. People are calling like, if you have a picture book, even if it's a beautiful, fabulous picture book that you love. There are books that I love that fall under this category. But if they are if this book is being made by two creators that are white and even if the illustrations are people of color, I wouldn't consider that a diverse book, you know, because both of the creators are white. And I'm so glad that they're choosing to illustrate a family of color or a protagonist of color, something like that. An underrepresented voice.

But also, why are we choosing the white illustrators to write these stories? And I'm not saying that white illustrators should be relegated to only making white characters. That's not right. And that's not what I'm saying. But why again, why aren't we asking, you know, a Haitian illustrator to come in and illustrate the book? You know, it's not diversity if its still white people doing it, if it's still all white people, it doesn't really matter what's happening, because that's just even though the group of white people may be diverse in, you know, cultural background, socioeconomic status, geographical location, political views. It's still not as diverse as it could be. So I think just trying to remember the privileges that you have and making sure that you're always trying to advocate and include others whenever possible with whatever decisions. Remember that very long sandwich I mentioned a long time ago, you know, like, yeah, why not invite everybody? You want everybody's opinion whether or not you're getting lunch or doing that $10 million deal. Hope that made sense.

Michaela: No that makes complete sense. And I'm so glad you brought that up because it's really important to reflect on these things. And like, you might be trying to be diverse, but like in the background, are you actually diverse? Are you actually like putting your money where your mouth is kind of thing.

Corrie: Exactly. Yeah.

Michaela: So, you curate booklists for kids as well. What do you look for when you're curating and recommending these book lists? And then what kind of themes do you like to highlight? I think I have a good idea, but I'll let you go into it a little bit more!

Corrie: So, when I am creating a book list, or even just when I'm sort of looking at books, I look for books that not only embody the very specific theme that I'm gathering resources for. For example, I'm doing one about stories that feature individuals with parents that are incarcerated or reentering society, you know, which is like a very underrepresented segment of the world of the experience you know, there's only a handful of these books. And so, when I'm looking for these resources, who are the creators? Are they the stakeholders in these experiences? Are they formerly incarcerated? Have they had a parent who's formerly incarcerated, you know, sort of what is their relationship to the situation that's being discussed in the book? And because that creates a more authentic narrative, and it also increases the diversity of the voices being published.

You know, like just what we are talking about, if two people write a really meaningful book about a parent and a child being reunited after they are incarcerated. That's amazing. And I hope it's beautiful and meaningful, but it's going to be more meaningful if the people that are creating these books are maybe abolitionists. So, we can add a spin on that to the story. If the people, have you know, if they have more experience and they understand the system versus somebody else coming and being like, oh, that would just be a lovely story to write about. Yes. And not really having any personal emotions invested in it besides. Wow, that would be a great story to write.

Michaela: You know, I think a lot of the time you can tell when someone's doing that as well. It kind of comes off a little bit like disingenuous.

Corrie: Yeah, for sure. I also really want to make sure that the stories side characters are accurately represented, and nothing reinforces negative stereotypes, or white supremacy culture. You know, I think people can think about how disability is represented in picture books and like, I am a non-disabled person, but so I can't speak too much on the matter. But if you think about all the books that you look through, if there is a disabled character, it's like probably a white child in a wheelchair. And there's probably going to be a desire to dance. Like there are so many books that fall into this trope of like a wheelchair user who then needs to do something that's not typically associated with whatever disability it is.

So that's, you know, what I'm looking for, even the side characters is really important because if you think about if you're reading a book to kids versus if the kids are reading the book themselves, then the language is also super important. You know, some classrooms don't use words like stupid or hate. And so if you have pre-literate kids, then you can sort of not say that, you know, when you're like doing the read aloud thing. Yeah. Which, like, all teachers have really sick guns from like holding up the books to the side. But so you can sort of get away with that. But when the students are able to read the books themselves, they're going to notice these things. And all of the students are going to be able to notice the illustration and they're going to notice something, especially if somebody is stereotypically represented, you know? Topics near and dear to my heart!

Michaela: That's why we have you here, we want to know all about it! And yeah, it seems like you put a lot of thought and effort into these into these book lists. So I'm really glad that there's someone out there doing this. It's definitely necessary.

Corrie: I am, I am but one small, angry feminist cog in the machine. But I am sure trying.

Michaela: I love this! So what are you reading at the moment and what's your all-time favorite book?

Corrie: I have also asked these questions before and everyone is like, how can you ask me my favorite book? And I'm like, It's not that hard. And then you, the turns have tabled, my own medicine it does not taste good! I had to make the decision myself, so I actually grabbed them. I was like, I'm gonna be so prepared! So the first book I am reading, it's called Empires Nursery. Absolutely fabulous. It’s basically about how Kid Lit was designed to promote American imperialism and the belief in like this very America freedom like Eagle Screech empire that we see in a lot of far-right conservative groups that is disguised as patriotism. And it's excellent, you know, just like really “light and fluffy”.

Michaela: Oh, yeah. I've been reading lots of the “light and fluffy” books the last month or so.

Corrie: Exactly. Yeah, you know, like a beach read. And then I have to say I was able to narrow it down to like probably top five. So Amazons, Abolitionists and Activists is like a Y.A. graphic novel. It's all about feminism, and it's specifically about like black feminism and feminists of color and how they have done a lot of the heavy lifting throughout society and one of my absolute favorite illustrations, I don't know if you can see or hear me so. Let me move my...

Michaela: Oh I love that!

Corrie: Yeah, so for folks who can't see or need an image assistance because it is pretty small. It's like a fight scene of a bunch of different mutants of sort, they say things like online harassment, poverty, racism, things like that. And it's all women of color that are fighting all these monsters and then floating on the clouds up above are all of the white women and the white feminists and.

Michaela: It's a powerful image.

Corrie: Yeah. Like shoot me through the heart. Incredible. So well-done. Absolutely fabulous. And, you know, it goes hard and it talks a lot about the history that is very whitewashed. It's in the education that I received in various U.S. states. So, yes, I highly recommend both of those things.

Michaela: Nice! So we're coming up to the end of the interview. Now, unfortunately, I could stay here talking all day. But I'm sure there are people out there who want to learn more about you. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you?

Corrie: Yeah, absolutely. I have a website The Tiny Activist. You can find me on Instagram at @thetinyactivists. The website, not plural. Instagram plural. I have a podcast called The Picture Bookstagang Podcast, where a couple of my besties and I, we talk about picture books. We talk about tropes that you see in picture books. We make a lot of weird jokes and I also do stuff like I have social justice curriculum, curated book boxes to go along with the curriculum lesson plans to discussion guides, all sorts of stuff on the website that you can check out as well as the consulting and professional development stuff.  If you want me to come and yell about feminism and racism to you personally, I would be happy to. And we also have a bookshop in case you are looking for, you know, library lists or something like that, two that are sort of broken down into different categories. If you're looking for stuff then shoot me an email, shoot me a DM, I'm here. I'm always ready to chat and be salty about the patriarchy.

Michaela: Again, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me. I found this conversation to be very insightful. I think that people are going to learn a lot, and I'm really glad that we could have this conversation.

Corrie: Thank you so much. I'm so glad too, it was great chatting! And even though you didn't chat very much, it was like me on a soapbox.

Michaela: I'm a good listener!

Corrie: I appreciate that.

Michaela: You had a lot of great things to say, so I was like ears wide open.

Corrie: I appreciate that.